Tatton Labour group backs HS2 rail plan

Tatton Labour group backs HS2 rail plan

Tatton Labour group backs HS2 rail plan

First published in News Knutsford Guardian: Photograph of the Author by , News Editor

TATTON Labour Party has backed the plans for the HS2 rail line which could run through the constituency.

Officials say the £32.7 billion project will create at least 100,000 jobs, with the north west route heading from Crewe, towards Lach Dennis and Plumley and then following the proposed A556 bypass route through Tabley and Mere.

It will then follow the M56, passing Rostherne, before stopping at a new hub at Manchester Airport and then in the centre of Manchester.

Residents in the villages of Pickmere, Tabley, Mere, Millington, High Legh, Ashley, Rostherne and Little Bollington have all voiced their concerns over the chosen route.

Tatton Labour Party chairman, Dominic Brown, told the Guardian the party had met last week to discuss the issue.

“Many members attended including some with in-depth knowledge of the railway network,” he said.

“We came to the conclusion that we support the current proposals of the HS2 project. Firstly the project will mean many job opportunities, especially in the north west.

“It will also ensure the north west can remain competitive with the south, with the journey times shortened drastically.

“It is long-term projects like this being brought forward that shadow chancellor Ed Balls noted as being a vital way of achieving growth in his five-point plan.”

But Mr Brown added that there were limitation to parts of the project.

“We think the timeframe of the project is too long at 20 years, and it needs to be drastically lowered so we can aim for more projects like HS2,” he said.

“Another issue that concerns us is the fact that unlike Manchester and Birmingham airports being on the proposed route Heathrow is not.

“This appears a strange decision as it would be a great help to protecting the environment by allowing people to bypass a flight to London to catch a connecting flight.

“The cost of using HS2 is currently not known, but it is vital it is kept at an affordable rate so as many people as possible are able to see the benefit.

“Although if in power the Labour group would have held a proper consultation with the local communities affected by the proposed route and provided mutual and agreeable solutions to their concerns, we consider the HS2 project to be beneficial to the area and people of Tatton, and endorse it.”

Comments (6)

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6:31pm Sat 23 Feb 13

Offa says says...

Tatton Labour Party need to tell locals whether they considered ANY of the critique of HS2 before coming to their conclusions. Were the 'railway experts' on BOTH sides of the argument or only on one side? There are a large number of independent economists that deeply question the bogus jobs figures. Even more independent economists that say the business case is completely fraudulent. RMT does not support HS2 - doesn't that tell Labour members something?? What they want is massive investment in the existing rail infrastructure. That will get MORE jobs, more evenly distributed around the country (Labour - remember you are supposed to be supporting 'One Nation' not a big city grabbit and run operation!). The jobs will be delivered QUICKER (not in TWENTY YEARS as with HS2); and they will be cheaper. Oh, just to let you know, HS2 will be run under the EU proposals for 'Platforms'. These take the Core routes (and HS2 is one such) out of the national governance structure to be run by a 'stakeholder' setup out of Brussels. So Tatton Labour Party is also supporting removing HS2 from the control of the UK Government. Brilliant. Do you think this will lose you votes or do you think this will lose you votes??
Tatton Labour Party need to tell locals whether they considered ANY of the critique of HS2 before coming to their conclusions. Were the 'railway experts' on BOTH sides of the argument or only on one side? There are a large number of independent economists that deeply question the bogus jobs figures. Even more independent economists that say the business case is completely fraudulent. RMT does not support HS2 - doesn't that tell Labour members something?? What they want is massive investment in the existing rail infrastructure. That will get MORE jobs, more evenly distributed around the country (Labour - remember you are supposed to be supporting 'One Nation' not a big city grabbit and run operation!). The jobs will be delivered QUICKER (not in TWENTY YEARS as with HS2); and they will be cheaper. Oh, just to let you know, HS2 will be run under the EU proposals for 'Platforms'. These take the Core routes (and HS2 is one such) out of the national governance structure to be run by a 'stakeholder' setup out of Brussels. So Tatton Labour Party is also supporting removing HS2 from the control of the UK Government. Brilliant. Do you think this will lose you votes or do you think this will lose you votes?? Offa says
  • Score: 0

7:18am Sun 24 Feb 13

rodthesod says...

Is there nothing positive to say of HS2?
If it is to create so many thousands of jobs, at what skill levels will they be?
For how long will they last?
How much will they be worth to the worker and by extension to the wider Cheshire economy.
The problem with supporting particular projects is they tend to reflect the values of those who support them.
How many would now support the construction of the second runway on the basis of the number of actual jobs and the value of those jobs to the wider economy now?
Basic questions need to be asked. Why is the train to call at Manchester Airport, but not Heathrow? Could this be something to do with the third runway at Heathrow?
Why the need to go up the west of the M6 when the shortest, and therefore, highest speed route would be to go up the east side through the job deprived areas of Staffordshire?
Will this in effect not be a brain drain from the North West to the South East as the room to build homes there decreases?
Where would this leave us?
Our Great asset is our people. The area around Manchester and Liverpool has been the crucible of so much inspiration and invention. Nowhere else in the world has given more than these two cities.London has no place in this pantheon of great cities of the world. Manchester and Liverpool dominate. HS2 is designed to remove the talent which made these things possible in the past and are here today for all to see. That is the reason for HS2 and the Labour group should wake up to the fact.
Is there nothing positive to say of HS2? If it is to create so many thousands of jobs, at what skill levels will they be? For how long will they last? How much will they be worth to the worker and by extension to the wider Cheshire economy. The problem with supporting particular projects is they tend to reflect the values of those who support them. How many would now support the construction of the second runway on the basis of the number of actual jobs and the value of those jobs to the wider economy now? Basic questions need to be asked. Why is the train to call at Manchester Airport, but not Heathrow? Could this be something to do with the third runway at Heathrow? Why the need to go up the west of the M6 when the shortest, and therefore, highest speed route would be to go up the east side through the job deprived areas of Staffordshire? Will this in effect not be a brain drain from the North West to the South East as the room to build homes there decreases? Where would this leave us? Our Great asset is our people. The area around Manchester and Liverpool has been the crucible of so much inspiration and invention. Nowhere else in the world has given more than these two cities.London has no place in this pantheon of great cities of the world. Manchester and Liverpool dominate. HS2 is designed to remove the talent which made these things possible in the past and are here today for all to see. That is the reason for HS2 and the Labour group should wake up to the fact. rodthesod
  • Score: 0

1:20pm Sun 24 Feb 13

Offa says says...

‘Rodthesod’ raises the significant question of the kinds of jobs that HS2 will create. Academics say that most of the jobs will be in low skilled areas (eg cleaning the trains – very few skilled jobs will be associated with running HS2), and in retail around the station developments.

Other key questions around the HS2 jobs claims include:
How TRUE are the jobs claims?? HS2Ltd/the Government have never been prepared to make public the modelling behind their job claims. They could be pulling the numbers out of thin air, or using outmoded modelling – with jobs as with the business case as a whole.

Are they NEW jobs?? Evidence from history and from impacts of HSR elsewhere is that HS2 will cause the RE-LOCATION of jobs rather than generate all new ones. So not new jobs.

Are the jobs a result of HS2 investment?? Academics suggest that most jobs said to come from HS2 will in fact come from the redevelopment of land surrounding the stations eg the land grab around Euston. So the UK could get these jobs by investing in re-development without spending billions on HS2. Similarly, the jobs figures that eg Birmingham is claiming come from HS2 are the result of FURTHER investment in transport – additional money to HS2. They are not jobs that can be attributed to HS2 investment.

How many jobs will be LOST from building HS2?? The HS2 Business case does not include calculations of loss - social, jobs, environmental, housing blight, etc. Three main points on job loss: 1. HS2Ltd/the Government is grabbing land for HS2 that was designated for local regeneration. Three examples – Birmingham City had earmarked Washwood Heath land for high tech jobs but HS2 is grabbing it for a maintenance depot - threatening 7,200 jobs. Ditto, HS2Ltd want the rail terminal around the Jaguar plant thus threatening jobs (indeed the viability of the Jaguar extension). And now we hear that the development of the Guinness land in West London has been put on hold because HS2Ltd/the Government want the land – another 10,000 jobs lost. 2. There will also be major job losses in areas near to HS2 but without a station. The academic and the political expectation is that jobs will RE-LOCATE from areas without stations to areas with stations. Re-location of jobs means some areas win jobs BUT at the expense of other areas, which is why HS2 is called 'a big-city stitch-up'. 3. The Government refuses compensation for medium sized+ businesses affected by HS2 (but outside 120m), which will have impacts on their profitability and therefore on jobs. There is no compensation for companies that will lose business from the construction period or from the impacts of the final scheme on their markets, product, estate or working conditions. HS2Ltd/the Government have no idea how many jobs will be lost over the route - either directly or indirectly. Clearly the Labour Party should commit to an independent review of HS2 and jobs before repeating the sort of nonsense that is used by HS2 and the Government.

How much will the jobs COST? You can do various sums on this eg £34 Billion divided by 100,000 jobs = about £340,000 PER JOB. Other figures are calculated but whatever the figure, HS2 is an extraordinarily expensive and inefficient way to create jobs. That takes us to the opportunity costs of HS2 jobs – if the same money was spent right across the railway infrastructure rather than just on HS2, would it create more or fewer jobs? Labour needs to answer this question if it is to have any credibility that it cares about jobs, unemployment and ‘one nation’.

WHEN will the jobs arrive? Phase 1 of HS2 is planned to open 2026; and Phase 2 in 2036. It is NOW that Manchester / Britain needs jobs not in 23 years at the earliest! There are 'shovel ready' infrastructure investment projects right across Britain and Labour should be putting their money into those if they care about jobs.

So basically, YES to massive investment in rail, but no to the HS2 proposal. Tatton Labour Party need to be more honest about HS2 and jobs.
‘Rodthesod’ raises the significant question of the kinds of jobs that HS2 will create. Academics say that most of the jobs will be in low skilled areas (eg cleaning the trains – very few skilled jobs will be associated with running HS2), and in retail around the station developments. Other key questions around the HS2 jobs claims include: How TRUE are the jobs claims?? HS2Ltd/the Government have never been prepared to make public the modelling behind their job claims. They could be pulling the numbers out of thin air, or using outmoded modelling – with jobs as with the business case as a whole. Are they NEW jobs?? Evidence from history and from impacts of HSR elsewhere is that HS2 will cause the RE-LOCATION of jobs rather than generate all new ones. So not new jobs. Are the jobs a result of HS2 investment?? Academics suggest that most jobs said to come from HS2 will in fact come from the redevelopment of land surrounding the stations eg the land grab around Euston. So the UK could get these jobs by investing in re-development without spending billions on HS2. Similarly, the jobs figures that eg Birmingham is claiming come from HS2 are the result of FURTHER investment in transport – additional money to HS2. They are not jobs that can be attributed to HS2 investment. How many jobs will be LOST from building HS2?? The HS2 Business case does not include calculations of loss - social, jobs, environmental, housing blight, etc. Three main points on job loss: 1. HS2Ltd/the Government is grabbing land for HS2 that was designated for local regeneration. Three examples – Birmingham City had earmarked Washwood Heath land for high tech jobs but HS2 is grabbing it for a maintenance depot - threatening 7,200 jobs. Ditto, HS2Ltd want the rail terminal around the Jaguar plant thus threatening jobs (indeed the viability of the Jaguar extension). And now we hear that the development of the Guinness land in West London has been put on hold because HS2Ltd/the Government want the land – another 10,000 jobs lost. 2. There will also be major job losses in areas near to HS2 but without a station. The academic and the political expectation is that jobs will RE-LOCATE from areas without stations to areas with stations. Re-location of jobs means some areas win jobs BUT at the expense of other areas, which is why HS2 is called 'a big-city stitch-up'. 3. The Government refuses compensation for medium sized+ businesses affected by HS2 (but outside 120m), which will have impacts on their profitability and therefore on jobs. There is no compensation for companies that will lose business from the construction period or from the impacts of the final scheme on their markets, product, estate or working conditions. HS2Ltd/the Government have no idea how many jobs will be lost over the route - either directly or indirectly. Clearly the Labour Party should commit to an independent review of HS2 and jobs before repeating the sort of nonsense that is used by HS2 and the Government. How much will the jobs COST? You can do various sums on this eg £34 Billion divided by 100,000 jobs = about £340,000 PER JOB. Other figures are calculated but whatever the figure, HS2 is an extraordinarily expensive and inefficient way to create jobs. That takes us to the opportunity costs of HS2 jobs – if the same money was spent right across the railway infrastructure rather than just on HS2, would it create more or fewer jobs? Labour needs to answer this question if it is to have any credibility that it cares about jobs, unemployment and ‘one nation’. WHEN will the jobs arrive? Phase 1 of HS2 is planned to open 2026; and Phase 2 in 2036. It is NOW that Manchester / Britain needs jobs not in 23 years at the earliest! There are 'shovel ready' infrastructure investment projects right across Britain and Labour should be putting their money into those if they care about jobs. So basically, YES to massive investment in rail, but no to the HS2 proposal. Tatton Labour Party need to be more honest about HS2 and jobs. Offa says
  • Score: 0

4:25pm Sun 24 Feb 13

Railrunner says...

Offa says wrote:
Tatton Labour Party need to tell locals whether they considered ANY of the critique of HS2 before coming to their conclusions. Were the 'railway experts' on BOTH sides of the argument or only on one side? There are a large number of independent economists that deeply question the bogus jobs figures. Even more independent economists that say the business case is completely fraudulent. RMT does not support HS2 - doesn't that tell Labour members something?? What they want is massive investment in the existing rail infrastructure. That will get MORE jobs, more evenly distributed around the country (Labour - remember you are supposed to be supporting 'One Nation' not a big city grabbit and run operation!). The jobs will be delivered QUICKER (not in TWENTY YEARS as with HS2); and they will be cheaper. Oh, just to let you know, HS2 will be run under the EU proposals for 'Platforms'. These take the Core routes (and HS2 is one such) out of the national governance structure to be run by a 'stakeholder' setup out of Brussels. So Tatton Labour Party is also supporting removing HS2 from the control of the UK Government. Brilliant. Do you think this will lose you votes or do you think this will lose you votes??
Offa, . RMT does most certainly support HS2 and has made many constructive comments over the way in which it will interconnect with the old classic network.

HS2 is not a TEN project. It is entirely UK led and run. Once completed it will be part of the TEN network in the same way as the M1, M40, M6, M25 and the current main line to Holyhead is! Brussels does not dictate how those other routes are run, nor will it on HS2.

You are making up scare stories or simply repeating the same stuff being posted on the internet by the ignorant or rabble rousers.

RMT response to HS2 is here.

http://www.rmt.org.u
k/Templates/Internal
.asp?NodeId=148692
[quote][p][bold]Offa says[/bold] wrote: Tatton Labour Party need to tell locals whether they considered ANY of the critique of HS2 before coming to their conclusions. Were the 'railway experts' on BOTH sides of the argument or only on one side? There are a large number of independent economists that deeply question the bogus jobs figures. Even more independent economists that say the business case is completely fraudulent. RMT does not support HS2 - doesn't that tell Labour members something?? What they want is massive investment in the existing rail infrastructure. That will get MORE jobs, more evenly distributed around the country (Labour - remember you are supposed to be supporting 'One Nation' not a big city grabbit and run operation!). The jobs will be delivered QUICKER (not in TWENTY YEARS as with HS2); and they will be cheaper. Oh, just to let you know, HS2 will be run under the EU proposals for 'Platforms'. These take the Core routes (and HS2 is one such) out of the national governance structure to be run by a 'stakeholder' setup out of Brussels. So Tatton Labour Party is also supporting removing HS2 from the control of the UK Government. Brilliant. Do you think this will lose you votes or do you think this will lose you votes??[/p][/quote]Offa, . RMT does most certainly support HS2 and has made many constructive comments over the way in which it will interconnect with the old classic network. HS2 is not a TEN project. It is entirely UK led and run. Once completed it will be part of the TEN network in the same way as the M1, M40, M6, M25 and the current main line to Holyhead is! Brussels does not dictate how those other routes are run, nor will it on HS2. You are making up scare stories or simply repeating the same stuff being posted on the internet by the ignorant or rabble rousers. RMT response to HS2 is here. http://www.rmt.org.u k/Templates/Internal .asp?NodeId=148692 Railrunner
  • Score: 0

11:08pm Sun 24 Feb 13

Railrunner says...

Good News, the Parliamentary process is being speeded up by the introduction of a "Paving Bill". This could knock years off the construction time and a few billion off the cost. It will enable all parties to show support for the project and detailed work can get underway much sooner.
Good News, the Parliamentary process is being speeded up by the introduction of a "Paving Bill". This could knock years off the construction time and a few billion off the cost. It will enable all parties to show support for the project and detailed work can get underway much sooner. Railrunner
  • Score: 0

11:23pm Sun 24 Feb 13

Offa says says...

Railrunner – you are wrong on the RMT and wrong on the EU.
Your link gave the RMT’s view on 29th July 2011. It has since shifted.

For other readers, Railrunner means TEN-T (not TEN) the Trans European Network for Transport, which defines the EU plans. You will see below that far from me writing blether, it is Railrunner who is completely out of touch. Making the connection between HS2 and the EU proposals regarding their Core routes is politically toxic – hence the standard response from those in favour of HS2 is to deny there is any connection.

The EUs original vision relating to Core and Comprehensive transport networks “the dual-layer approach” was set out here: http://register.cons
ilium.europa.eu/pdf/
en/11/st15/st15629.e
n11.pdf Much detail but try pages 12-14 and perhaps articles 44, 51, 52 onwards from page 40. The policy has developed beyond that now.
Have a look at these maps http://register.cons
ilium.europa.eu/pdf/
en/12/st08/st08047-a
d07.en12.pdf to see how WCML London to Birmingham has been downgraded to the comprehensive network, leaving space to define HS2 over that sector as a Core route.
Neither phase 1 nor 2 of HS2 are EU priorities, so in that sense they are not being driven by the EU but they are certainly part of TEN-T route 8 for completion by 2030. See link here: http://ec.europa.eu/
transport/themes/inf
rastructure/connecti
ng/doc/revision/list
-of-projects-cef.pdf


What begins to be more interesting – and Railrunner is clearly not aware of this - is the “innovative” proposal to take the ‘governance’ of the Core routes out of full national control and give it to what are being called ‘Platforms’ of stakeholders, (which go beyond the existing forums to co-ordinate transport developments and operations across national boundaries). Details are still being negotiated but initial thinking is reflected here: MEMO/11/706 Brussels, October 19, 2011 and current thinking here:
http://europa.eu/rap
id/press-release_IP-
13-65_en.htm?locale=
en

No space in this blog for more except to point out to Railrunner that the ‘trend’ in the EU’s current proposals are for a step change in the liberalisation of the trans European rail routes, and this is a key issue for RMT. If Siim Kallas (European Commissioner who is in charge of Transport) has his way, the contracting and running of HS2 (including timetabling, ticketing and more) will be taken out of UK Parliament hands. That is not a prospect that fits easily with RMT’s position on re-nationalising the railways. Additionally, RMT understand that investing right across the existing rail network will have a far quicker, bigger (and cheaper) impact on jobs and they have looked more carefully at the job numbers that HS2Ltd/the Government fling about. RMT have had the courage not to buy into the Government’s propaganda about HS2, and I give them every respect for that.

The current EU proposals are pretty toxic for UK politicians of all colours – investing £34 Billion+ into HS2 only to hand it over to the EU to run it. Will this lose them votes or will this lose them votes??
Railrunner – you are wrong on the RMT and wrong on the EU. Your link gave the RMT’s view on 29th July 2011. It has since shifted. For other readers, Railrunner means TEN-T (not TEN) the Trans European Network for Transport, which defines the EU plans. You will see below that far from me writing blether, it is Railrunner who is completely out of touch. Making the connection between HS2 and the EU proposals regarding their Core routes is politically toxic – hence the standard response from those in favour of HS2 is to deny there is any connection. The EUs original vision relating to Core and Comprehensive transport networks “the dual-layer approach” was set out here: http://register.cons ilium.europa.eu/pdf/ en/11/st15/st15629.e n11.pdf Much detail but try pages 12-14 and perhaps articles 44, 51, 52 onwards from page 40. The policy has developed beyond that now. Have a look at these maps http://register.cons ilium.europa.eu/pdf/ en/12/st08/st08047-a d07.en12.pdf to see how WCML London to Birmingham has been downgraded to the comprehensive network, leaving space to define HS2 over that sector as a Core route. Neither phase 1 nor 2 of HS2 are EU priorities, so in that sense they are not being driven by the EU but they are certainly part of TEN-T route 8 for completion by 2030. See link here: http://ec.europa.eu/ transport/themes/inf rastructure/connecti ng/doc/revision/list -of-projects-cef.pdf What begins to be more interesting – and Railrunner is clearly not aware of this - is the “innovative” proposal to take the ‘governance’ of the Core routes out of full national control and give it to what are being called ‘Platforms’ of stakeholders, (which go beyond the existing forums to co-ordinate transport developments and operations across national boundaries). Details are still being negotiated but initial thinking is reflected here: MEMO/11/706 Brussels, October 19, 2011 and current thinking here: http://europa.eu/rap id/press-release_IP- 13-65_en.htm?locale= en No space in this blog for more except to point out to Railrunner that the ‘trend’ in the EU’s current proposals are for a step change in the liberalisation of the trans European rail routes, and this is a key issue for RMT. If Siim Kallas (European Commissioner who is in charge of Transport) has his way, the contracting and running of HS2 (including timetabling, ticketing and more) will be taken out of UK Parliament hands. That is not a prospect that fits easily with RMT’s position on re-nationalising the railways. Additionally, RMT understand that investing right across the existing rail network will have a far quicker, bigger (and cheaper) impact on jobs and they have looked more carefully at the job numbers that HS2Ltd/the Government fling about. RMT have had the courage not to buy into the Government’s propaganda about HS2, and I give them every respect for that. The current EU proposals are pretty toxic for UK politicians of all colours – investing £34 Billion+ into HS2 only to hand it over to the EU to run it. Will this lose them votes or will this lose them votes?? Offa says
  • Score: 0

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